Véronique - You know you're a good mom but you really need to let them go a bit.
me - mmmmm, ::inserting mental earplugs::
Véronique - they need to breathe, we all say you're a good mom but you're always with them, it's not normal to be with them all the time. Let go!
me - I like to be with them. I think it's a luxury to be able to be with them.
Véronique - yes but it's bad for them, think of them. What about the Centre de Loisirs? You need to sign them up next vacation.
me - ::defensive:: It seems like a dumping ground for kids to me. You know, like I don't want to deal with them. I mean it's all the kids who parents work so the kids must be I don't know, antsy.
(note: S's teacher last year put a bug in our ear and told us not to send him to the Centre because it was full of bullys and a shy kid like him would have a hard time)
Véronique - I send Lola there! She loves it! All of your mom friends feel this way I'm just the only one who's willing to tell you. We all think you're a good mom just too clingy.
me: ::wondering who the we is::
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Later I talked with Seb.
me - I think it's cultural. In the US I would not be seen as a clingy mom. I'd be seen as the cool hippy mom who paints outside on the terrace with her kids instead of dumping them off at daycare. They think I'm weird because I breastfed Charlotte for so long.
Seb - I told you not to mention homeschooling or you'd be crucified.
me - I mentioned it to Manue because I thought she'd be interested and she was complaining all the time about all the bad private schools her son had been through. I just said maybe she'd look into it because I was.
Seb - small villages talk a lot.
me - okay but the point is do they really think their parenting is heaps better than mine? Do they even read books? Is she a psychiatrist?
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It is cultural. One mom I know has just given birth and she's on a year long maternity leave. Over coffee each week she has gone on and on to all of us about how she still doesn't have a part time nounou. She already has the daycare center two days a week as soon as possible but that isn't enough. All the sympathy she gets for her plight has me laughing. I just smirk to myself and say "that's so European." I wouldn't dream of lecturing about her choice though. It's just her thing to need more time alone I guess.
It's crazy the schedule of a preschooler here. A typical friend of Little S goes to school each day at 7:00am and stays at the garderie until 8:30am. At 4:30 the school day ends but they go back to the garderie until 6:30. At 6:30 a babysitter or relative might come by to pick them up to fill in the gap until the parent's get home at 8:00. On Wednesdays they go to the Centre de Loisirs (Community Center) 7:30 - 6:30 where they do keep busy but the Centre is run by 20 something year olds and from what I've heard isn't all that well supervised with lots of mixed ages. At vacation time the kids go there if the parents don't take a vacation. Even the kids whose parents don't work put their kids in two or three activities during the week and give them time at the Centre during vacations. French kids aren't allowed to be bored!
Kids here it seems are encouraged to be on their own and anything close to babying or mothering like beastfeeding too long is really looked down on. I'm sure part of my mother hen image comes from this. My kids aren't in activities, community centers and I do lots of things on my own with them. We walk in the forest, paint, make our own games up with the neighbor kids. I do it my way. They do it their way. Vive la différence.
(one funny observation I have is why American kids who are coddled so much and encouraged to stay a kid are so independent from their parents at a young age. French kids are so much more timid about the world at large and more attached to their parents way into adulthood. I wonder why? Seb and I have always wondered about this even before we had kids).
18 comments:
The answer is obvious, children who are nurtured (I prefer that to "coddled") and cared for by parents rather than daycare feel more secure and happy :-) Ignore them, just do what feels right to you and your children will thank you for it.
I find it interesting what you say about American kids being independant though. I have no experience of French kids but my experience has always been that American kids are less independant and mature than English kids of the same age.... I think that is more to do with the secondary education though.
Oooh when I said "ignore them" I meant tge other mothers obviously.... Not your children, you're doing the exact opposite of ignoring your children and that's great :-)
I do ignore them but they're my circle of friends so it's hard to completely tune it out. It's part of living in another culture. You're going to see things different but you have to accept that you aren't the societal norm and I guess take the heat for it :)
As for the comparison between French and Americans kids I guess what I meant was at the majority age, like at 18 years old. I agree about younger kids and I bet you've met American ados. Most American teens are emotionally immature in the ado and teen years compared to European kids. But the difference is they tend to start real life a lot earlier. For example I had a job and a car at 16 and at 19 I was already living out of the house, working full time and going to a university, all paid by me. All my friends did this too. We didn't see our parents much because our lives were so busy. French university kids tend to go home every weekend and they never work while in school. They rely a lot on their parent's advice and financial support and they rarely move too far away from them. It's not a bad thing but you'd think with all the pushing away they'd be the opposite! I just find it odd not wrong or right.
How hurtful!
I have found that objectively comparing kids from one culture to the next is impossible. It depends far too much on the individual kids you are considering when forming your opinion. An opinion you've probably already formed anyway. So you're just using the kids to justify what you already believe.
I am sick to death of hearing about how it's better to do this or how it's better to do that. Everyone says it's all about the kids and how they will be traumatized, but it's not. When they say daycare is bad! Or that daycare is great! what they are really saying is that THEIR personal choice based on THEIR personal belief system, economic situation and family is The Best. It's not at all about the kids. It's them justifying their choices and making other people feel bad.
I got a load of this crap from the woman who handles my business account at the freaking BANK this morning. GOD! ENOUGH ALREADY!
There is judgment in Italy but I honestly think it is FAR worse in the US. Only do my American friends ever bring up any of that "bad mom" versus "good mom" crap. I had gathered France was a little bit the way you describe it from based on what our French au pair has said about the French children she used to babysit in the afternoons and how she has remarked that I "spend a lot more time with [my] children than most mothers". I honestly don't think I spend THAT much time with them. And I certainly don't play with them as much as most of my American friends who have kids their age.
Anyway, I can't imagine any of my friends ever saying something like that to me. And that goes for either way: that I work too much or don't work enough. They might think it but it's MY business. And honestly, I don't care.
I can see why you would, though. That was incredibly ballsy of her to say and if she felt the need to put it that way, I can only imagine what will be going through your head when you see the other "moms".
One thing I value in a friend is not necessarily that she see things the way I do, but that she respect me and stand up for me if anyone else is talking shit behind my back. I thought we all learned the importance of that in middle school! If I were in your town, I might not be the mother hen, but I would surely stick up for you in that group of snarks.
(sorry for the rant. you clearly hit a nerve.)
I don't think they're necessarily snarky it's just very, very cultural. All my friends here are French. I don't have any American friends except in blogland.
I think they're just afraid to see someone doing it differently. It's new to them and odd and not the way they were raised. It's not hip parenting at all to be an earth mom in France (but there are ripples of it--in ten years maybe it will be all the rage!!) Funny but you can play the femme fetale card all you want in France but the mommy card is definitely NOT cool. Getting pregnant is cool but being a mommy figure isn't. I don't get it. I probabl never will.
I would just think they could still respect your decision. It would be one thing if you complained to them about spending all your time couped up at home, but you seem to be very pleased with the situation, so I don't see why they need to criticize.
Yes but being French also means giving your opinion about EVERYTHING. Grab the earplugs, lalalala--I've been doing it for years. Add a small town life into it and you have an impossible situation.
Otherwise they are adorable and I really like them, I do, but they definitely have their opinions. It's true that V is the most annoying and outspoken of all of them but at least she's telling me to my face instead of hiding behind a gossip mill. I really think she means well in some warped way and she does break my mommy advice rule. I still like her though. You blogged about this recently didn't you? Isn't it the same in Italy. Lots and lots of assvice overload ;)
That must be frustrating but I think you're dealing with it well. It probably *is* very cultural but there are plenty of people like that in the US too.
"You shouldn't let baby sleep with you, they'll never leave your bed."
"You need to stop breastfeeding now, it's long enough" (at 3, 6, 9, 12 months...)
"You carry baby too much."
"You need to let him cry."
etc etc etc.
The difference is, I think there are more people in the US like you that it's easier to find a social group that fits in. What's funny for me is, amongst my neighbors, I'm the last to have kids and I fit right in with their parenting style. Amongst my other group of friends, we're the first, and a lot of them are using us as an example, which is nice :). I've spent a lot of time supporting new parents who've been harangued about sleep/breastfeeding/parenting issues. I get it too, but from my extended family, who are easy to ignore.
My mantra is: Do what works for you and your family.
btw - L just started daycare (today is his first full day) at 12 weeks! And A is in pre-K. I sent her even when I was home, part time, because she was bouncing off the walls. Next year I h ope to be home FT and will send her to pre-k 3 or 4 days/week (8-3 or 8-5). She's super super social and desperately needs other kids to play with all day. There's no way I could keep her happy being home all day every day. But that's her personality. I feel super guilty about it though.
Yes, its a bit like going skiing and not putting your kid in ESF ski school so they can earn their medal. I get some looks when I say my husband is teaching them himself!
As for french friends, I only have 3 close friends and all of them I met at the Espace Parents at the local MJC. All three are extended breastfeeding, earth mum types (as much as french women can be!). In fact, they often have a go at me for not buying organic!! Bizarre! Not the sort of friends I expected to find here but I am very lucky to have made them.
I know these are big differences but I think as your kids get older perhaps the differences seem less as even we, very attached parents, naturally let go when our kids are ready for it!
Thank you for this post. It really hits on how I feel during our annual vacations in France. Everyone asks me what I do all the time, because taking care of the kids just isn't a valid occupation. Lately I just tell them "Nothing, I do nothing all day." They don't want to understand, so they won't.
Sigh. I just wrote out a massive comment but somehow it got eaten by the computer!
I have finally started to grow a thick skin regarding the French and their comments on everything. People are now starting to give me a hard time about breastfeeding, and my daughter is only 4 months old. I just let it roll of my back now.
I do know what you mean about people leaving their kids all day long at daycare. I am working so hard to avoid that! I don't know one person in the US that gets home every night at 8pm, but here it seems to be par for course. France has a problem with people staying in the office late seen as a good thing.
I also think that in the US people have a more 'live and let live' attitude whereas here there always seems to be a 'right' way to do things... I don't know what the answer is, but I understand your frustration!! I am learning to be ok with it though, I just embrace it as part of my crazy American persona out here.
I get the impression that this person must be jealous, and wants to express it in some passive way. You know, giving you advice. The "we" is probably the royal we. You are doing a lot with your kids that many people only dream about being able to do. Most people don't have the creativity to do the kinds of things you're doing.
I remember having mixed feelings about the French attitudes toward stay-at-home moms. On the one hand, I really liked that they recognized that you might want a life outside of your children. I have often felt in the SF bay area that once you have children, it is expected that you should want to be with them every waking moment. There are exceptions to that, of course, but it is often acceptable for a mother to work if they need the income, but maybe not because she likes her work.
On the other hand, I really felt that they didn't value that staying home with the kids IS work and has value. I remember when I was pregnant with Julien and being relieved that, at least for a while, I would have a very good answer for what I was going to do with myself. Once Sophia had reached the age of one I had repeatedly been asked when I was going back to work and didn't I miss it. I'm sure that if you started mentioning home-schooling they just wouldn't understand.
Really good written post from you.
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Not having children or ever having the desire to be a parent, I will only say this: Do what you feel is right for your kids, not for you and not for your friends, but for the kids. All kids are different and need different things. Some of my friends have kids and they all parent in their own ways and all the kids seem pretty cool and OK with it. For the kids that are extroverts and social, they prefer to go to school and spend time away from their parents and with friends-this way they get to learn things that they will never learn from their parents (in a well-rounded good kind of way). For those who are more introverted it's the opposite. My parenting friends give their children what each child needs and Voila, a happy kid.
Disclaimer: Do not try this with pug children - otherwise you will never have any private time or rest.
As I read some blogs of people living in France, I am surprised how little time they have with their children. They leave the babies and toddlers at day care while they're home. I wouldn't dream of leaving the kids with other people if I was home and able to take care of them, but maybe as moms we aren't selfish enough. My brother in Texas wouldn't dream of picking his kids up before the hour he neeeded to be there. He'd paid for that time and he was going to use it to go on bike rides or do something fun for himself. His teenager seems to have turned out as well as my teenagers, so I guess it doesn't harm them in the long run.
Also, I nursed my youngest until he was 3. When he was 2, we traveled in France and you should have seen the looks I got for nursing a practically grown kid!
funny, when I read this I thought your descriptions matched just the opposite. What I mean is, being American - my view of American kids/parenting is more in line with your description of French. Very few families I knew had stay at home moms. Kids were with babysitters, schools and the like from a young age because nearly all of the parents had to work...or chose to. Now the nursing thing I can see ... I know French moms nurse...but probably only the 1st year.
as far as nounous and activities...I think it is healthy for kids to be able to socialize with others and I find the facilities here in France pretty top notch for that. and it isn't bad for the moms (even if not working) to take a break from time to time. I think it gives balance and refuels their spirits. I'm sad for families that drop their kids off from 7am to 8pm daily ... in any land, that can't be good.
all of that said, I think it is intrusive for another person to weigh in to the extent your friend did. Unless someone sees or senses problems or stress, personal choices re: childrearing are just that...personal. and that applies to mothers who choose to work as well as those who choose not to. of course, these days that is rarely a choice.
it is probably a case of regional attitudes, whether US, French or elsewhere. I dislike sweeping generalizations ... you know ... "the French" this and "Americans" that, although I too am guilty of using them from time to time.
Kim - I suppose a lot of my observations are just for my little corner of France and for the French women I meet here. It changes from town to town and from generation to generation (but I do know French women in quite a few different parts of France from moving around so much!).
Even though it starts off sounding like a bash at the French it was actually a backhanded compliment that French children stay close to their parents even though they seem to be pushed away at a young age. My neighbor's daughter is five and she just did a week long ski trip in the alps with her class. Can you imagine that in kindergarten in the US!? It's crazy. It's something I still don't understand though---French kids are pushed out of the nest early but they stay very close to their parents in to adulthood. For example my husband calls his mother twice a week and he always worries about what his parents think. I like that. I actually hope my kids turn out the "French way" :)
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